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Rise of Legends Heaven » Forums » General Discussion » Sun Idol
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Topic Subject:Sun Idol
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MudokonGod
Banned
posted 06-13-06 08:20 AM EDT (US)         
Possibly the most popular unit in the game, it is a very rare even for a Cuotl player not to pump out at least two of these guys as soon as possible.
When discussing Cuotl strategies, Sun Idols frequently feature. It appears they counter everything, from Zeke to Eldar Glass Dragons.

The important bits
Cost: 100 Timonium, 300 Energy
HP: 800
Trample: 18 (high)
Siege: 16
Attack: 14
Range: 20
Pop: 7
Speed: 25 (slow)
Armour: Heavy
Size: Large

The Sun Idol is slow.. Before each beam of wonderful sunlight, he charges up his little arm for at least one second. His movement speed speaks for itself.

Trample
As mentioned, it is high. However, the Sun Idol moves very slowly and your opponent will usually have no trouble moving the cannon fodder out of the way. However, upon right clicking enemy infantry, the Sun Idol will automatically go to use trample - he will not stop and use his sun beam.
And against standard Vinci Musketeers, the trample obliterates them instantly. It is that strong.

But it didn't take a genius to work out the Sun Idol rocked against cannon fodder... but what about stronger enemies? I decided to test against just two enemy units on netural non-attrition ground. Two popular units.

Against the Vinci unupgraded Juggernaut
The Juggernaut wins, with 132/850 HP remaining.

Reasoning: The Sun Idol speed. While his attacks are fairly effective, it simply takes too long between each sun beam attack for it to win.

However, if the Juggernaut costs twice as much as the Sun Idol, then it would stand to reason. Let's look at the Juggernaut's price...
It begins with a research cost, unlike the Sun Idol, which is 150 timonium, 25 wealth.
And from that point, to buy the unit, it costs 300 timonium, 50 wealth.
When comparing that to the Sun Idol's 100/300, the Juggernaut feels a little cheaper, and it has a cost system which means it will be more effective to build a lot of Juggernauts - getting the most out of the 150/25 research. While it is more cost effective for the Sun Idol when comparing the first Sun Idol to the first Juggernaut, it soon becomes apparent that the Juggernaut is more cost effective on perhaps the 5th unit.

Against the Alin unupgraded Ruhk
The Rukh loses, and the Sun Idol has 82/800 HP remaining. Obviously the Sun Idol isn't that great against it if it loses 90% of it's life. Two Rukhs would utterly destroy a Sun Idol.

To see if the Rukh is more cost-effective...
350 timonium, 50 wealth. Compared to the Sun Idol's 100/300, the Rukh is roughly equal, though this depends on have an equal income of timonium and wealth/energy.
However, the Rukh is a Great City unit. The Juggernaut and Sun Idol only require a large city. It would appear the Sun Idol is simply better than the Rukh - available earlier, roughly equal cost, victory in combat.

The Sun Idol is obviously best against small units, and it's trample will completely pwn large groups of infantry with real ease, but it's slow attack, slow speed and apparent weakness to other large units means to use it in moderation.
I personally was one of those who use the Sun Idol against everything. I would always send them in, trailing my main army to have the beams of light as a bit of support - perhaps this isn't the most effective use? Getting their trample in the thick of things is certainly a good option.

AuthorReplies:
FxBalance
Zekeling
posted 06-14-06 10:34 AM EDT (US)     26 / 38       
Sun Idols *do* get bigger when you upgrade them. Watch them as the upgrade completes.

Sun idols are not perfect units but are quite decent vrs just about anything. The also grab your opponants attention and they usually try to focus fire the idol to death which means you get a good bang for you buck when using your shields and you have a great chance to let your micro shine as you cloak hurt ones and run them back to heal.

That said their not absolutely neccessary. You can actually become a very speedy cuotl by sieging with 2-3 of your air bombers and defending them with a bunch of quetzels and perhaps a storm disk. (Even 1 bomber is quite a distraction) Your main force can defend backed by sun cannons, your hero, lots of sentinels and death snakes and a few jaguars while your air force snipes around the map easily retreatng from their mainforce and wiping any of their airforce. You can easily micro your main army to execute dual prong strikes. Air force here, main force there and later they merge for an all out capital assault.

However... I love sun idols. I think Cuotl heal just too slowly though. I almost WANT my sun idol to die so I can make a new full health one rather then waiting like 4 mins for a population sucking mostly dead statue. What could happen... You end up at full pop with a mostly dead army healing at a ridicuously slow rate while your opponant is at full pop with a full life army. Unless you have 3 sanctuaries and 10 fanes hes about to roll you over.

GamerAeon
Zekeling
posted 06-14-06 12:43 PM EDT (US)     27 / 38       
FxBalance can I have your autograph? lol
I downloaded a couple of your savegames and I must say I fully enjoyed every minute of the action Learned alot too.
FxBalance
Zekeling
posted 06-14-06 08:57 PM EDT (US)     28 / 38       
Thanks Gamer but I'm still learning this game myself. Its quite addictive and a real romp to log in an play for a while.

BTW I uploaded another match, FxBalance Vrs Haggoth. It was a fun match. Funny, I have yet to face Alin an Cuotl.

I'll start another thread asking for a review once the replay is available here.

[This message has been edited by FxBalance (edited 06-14-2006 @ 11:10 PM).]

MudokonGod
Banned
posted 06-15-06 05:50 PM EDT (US)     29 / 38       

Quote:

However... I love sun idols. I think Cuotl heal just too slowly though. I almost WANT my sun idol to die so I can make a new full health one rather then waiting like 4 mins for a population sucking mostly dead statue. What could happen... You end up at full pop with a mostly dead army healing at a ridicuously slow rate while your opponant is at full pop with a full life army. Unless you have 3 sanctuaries and 10 fanes hes about to roll you over.


Arks are good for healing - keep a few near your army and you shouldn't heal too slowly. Alternatively, get out of a battle before you're too majory damaged, utilising both the cloak and shield if necessary.

For some reason, I've never seen the slow healing of Cuotl to be a problem.

liku
Zekeling
posted 06-15-06 08:15 PM EDT (US)     30 / 38       
Cuotl have the bet healing in the game even at the large city phase... just build some more district and you are in..
Alvinz92
Zekeling
posted 06-16-06 07:45 AM EDT (US)     31 / 38       
I reckon that on a one vs one battle with an elite sun idol and an fully upgraded Rukh, the rukh will win. because, remember that the Rukh has 25% extra attack and 10% extra health from the fire thing alone! What with the tech tree too, ^^!!!
XavierIX
Zekeling
posted 06-16-06 08:37 AM EDT (US)     32 / 38       
The Cuotl do possibly have some of the best healing because, it heals on the move, and while in fighting. They dont have to stand still, but its slower than the other two races healing but they gotta stand still for it to work. The Holy Arks healing can be upgraded by using worship I think to a max of 1.33 persecond of healing when its at the max.
FxBalance
Zekeling
posted 06-16-06 10:23 AM EDT (US)     33 / 38       
So with a 200/1000 Hp Elite Sun Idol with JUST Ark healing your looking at 10 mins to heal up. Possibly 3-4 mins Standing still Idle WITH an Ark.
XavierIX
Zekeling
posted 06-16-06 12:41 PM EDT (US)     34 / 38       
Yea but Im not sure if it stacks I know putting two of them together dosent but being idol and having it there I think it heals faster.
HippoInTheHouse
Zekeling
posted 06-16-06 01:23 PM EDT (US)     35 / 38       
Cuotl are the best race at healing, true, but Sun Idols are one of the worst UNITS at healing.

Healing adds a flat number to the health of a unit every X amount of time. It's not percentage-based.


I AM NOT HIPPO. I am Monocular (Vinci), ManWithThreeKidneys (Alin), and Thunderstick (Cuotl).
liku
Zekeling
posted 06-16-06 06:45 PM EDT (US)     36 / 38       
"So with a 200/1000 Hp Elite Sun Idol with JUST Ark healing your looking at 10 mins to heal up. Possibly 3-4 mins Standing still Idle WITH an Ark."

For me when i hit Elite Sun Idol it's take only 45 sec to completly heal.
but at half hp i cloak and heal, i mostly tend to use 4-6 idole and it most cost effective to use the wonderfull healing capacity unfortunatly most ppl tend to ignore this and get pawned.

just to compare:

small city the maximum healing rate for vinci and alin is 4hp/sec STATIONNARY in FRIENDLY territory. and most of the time it's min going back to friendly territory.

At large city phase alin and vinci healing rate is the same but cuotl can max out at 1.5 hp/s in ennemy territory and in fight and 9hp/s in friendly territory stationnary

at great city phase:
alin vinci max out at 7 hp/s Stationnary in Friendly territory.

and cuotl average is 2 hp/s in ennemy and in fight and average is 18hp/s stationnary in friendly territory.

it depdends on your strategy and the number of holy district building, i based my test on:

3 holy on 3 city

Bridger
Zekeling
posted 06-17-06 02:27 AM EDT (US)     37 / 38       
If your building so many Holy Districts that your healing is above 2hp/sec for national healing your going to lose the game.

Reactor districts take priority, Energy is more important than an extra .25 hp/sec of healing. Maybe if you have a lot of cities (team game) it would work, but not in 1v1. 4-6 Holy districts MAX. (maybe build a new one if you need a holy ark, those things are expensive >_< ).


Check out Tales of Legend, a Rise of Legends Community Show!

[This message has been edited by Bridger (edited 06-17-2006 @ 02:28 AM).]

Zeusmeister
Zekeling
posted 06-17-06 10:45 AM EDT (US)     38 / 38       

Quote:

So what's a decent counter for Sun Idols as a Cuotl?
I mean, are *more* Sun Idols the only answer? I was wondering if massed Death Snakes would be effective, if say you cloaked them on approach and swammed the idols one at a time.

I encountered this problem very quickly in the beta and I think there is only one cost-effective way to beat it.

Get lots of Death Snakes and cloak them so they can get to the Idols before attacking. Czin's bonuses don't hurt either.


Quote from WH_demoneyekyo: "I would say u need more thinking playing "Go" then u would playing chess."
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